Zadie Smith Talks to Ezra Klein

I loved this conversation between Ezra Klein because it reminds me so much of what it's like to discover a book or author: There is no time limit to it.

There was no shortage of interviews with Smith when her most recent novel, The Fraud, came out just over a year ago.

But that does not mean there's nothing interesting to be found in the novel now, and beyond that, Smith hasn't stopped thinking about countless topics. She's particularly eloquent in this episode on:

• populism
• the value of emotionality
• hierarchical revolution
• oppression
• identity
• the brilliance of Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death
• life without a smart phone
• technology as a "behavior modification system"
• aging and loneliness

I especially loved her on how broad the concept of intelligence actually is but how we define it too narrowly too often. It's just an encompassing view of the world and of people, one that forces us to decentralize ourselves and whatever value we might attach to our way of seeing the world:

What we define as intelligence, we define it so partially. I’m so aware, without trying to sound falsely humble, that I am a complete idiot about so many things, but that I have this particular intelligence in a very, extremely narrow area that’s allowed me to make the life I’ve made. But if you asked me the most basic facts of the universe or even the relationship between the sun and the moon, basic math, geography, I mean there are acres of ignorance in my life no matter practical knowledge, to do things with your hands, to make things, how to run a group, how to speak to people, how to relate to others—it’s endless, the things I’m not good at. There are many, many contexts in the world I can go into and be a true fool. Truly lost. And that’s important to know when you move through the world. That this thing you call intellect, this thing that you value, this thing that may even be the basis of your meritocratic existence has limited use. And there are many, many ways to be intelligent in this world. 

Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones - The Ezra Klein Show

Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike? Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp

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